Hi,
Giving some background : I'll be graduating from a two-year MS in statistics in January. I have have two bachelors one in economics and another in law. I'm doing good in statistics (strong candidate for a PhD). I have a fair amount of programming in R and MatLab, some basic knowledge of C/C++. I'm currently an intern working on an individual project on CVA for a consultancy firm. I also had the opportunity to do a short internship on a securitisation desk for a small or medium bank.
I'm interested in trading, manual or automated. I was wondering if it's (still) possible to move directly in a prop' trading position with a track record? What are the junior trader position like? and how could I get there? The only (prop') trader I know told me prop' traders are usually successful market makers. However I believe the "style" is quite different.
Now given my background, I'm looking for a contingency plan in finance: neither consultancy nor risk management interests me. I don't have high hopes on being a modeller since I'm not "hardcore" scientist. I'd be glad to hear about any alternatives in finance.
Besides, maybe some of you could refer me to some interesting subject related to machine learning. Yes, I'm looking for a contingency plan.
Contingency plan
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jungle
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- Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2004 12:00 am
Contingency plan
Going straight from school into prop was discussed in another thread. Don't remember which but perhaps someone else will. Should be in 'Careers' or 'University'.
"Junior Trader" is not well defined and can cover everything from being a PA to execution trading to desk quant tasks. I'd say what matters is what you might learn from the people you work with, which is very hard to guess at.
Contingency plan: desk quant?
"Junior Trader" is not well defined and can cover everything from being a PA to execution trading to desk quant tasks. I'd say what matters is what you might learn from the people you work with, which is very hard to guess at.
Contingency plan: desk quant?
it's axiomatic, deal with it.
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Aleph
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- Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2004 12:00 am
Contingency plan
Your CV would probably get you an interview for a junior trading role at an HFT prop firm if you're interested in that side of things. From my experience 'junior traders' move into 'full' trader roles pretty quickly. Using the term 'junior' is just a way to pay less for a while.
The PhD might be a good back-up. If you go into something else you're done for trading. With the PhD you get another bite at the apple afterwards.
The PhD might be a good back-up. If you go into something else you're done for trading. With the PhD you get another bite at the apple afterwards.
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Peerless
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2004 12:00 am
Contingency plan
First of all, thanks for answering. I wasn't so lucky on other parts of the web.
By modeller, i meant "desk quant". When I was an intern on a securitization desk, I had the opportunity to spend one day with the interest modelling desk's chief. He told me that statistics wasn't the sought profile for desk quants. Indeed, the ones I know are Math MS/PhD or engineers. Anyway doesn't mean I can't try.
PhD delays my "real" professional start, so I'll get into it only if I don't find anything that suits me. Besides, I don't want to do it for the bad reasons. Moreover, I have my share of disappointments with academia (science is great but scientists remain humans).
What's a HFT prop firm? Is it some kind of arcade? (I looked up but didn't find anything)
I ll be looking for the other thread.
"If you go into something else you're done for trading. "
Duly noted, thanks.
By modeller, i meant "desk quant". When I was an intern on a securitization desk, I had the opportunity to spend one day with the interest modelling desk's chief. He told me that statistics wasn't the sought profile for desk quants. Indeed, the ones I know are Math MS/PhD or engineers. Anyway doesn't mean I can't try.
PhD delays my "real" professional start, so I'll get into it only if I don't find anything that suits me. Besides, I don't want to do it for the bad reasons. Moreover, I have my share of disappointments with academia (science is great but scientists remain humans).
What's a HFT prop firm? Is it some kind of arcade? (I looked up but didn't find anything)
I ll be looking for the other thread.
"If you go into something else you're done for trading. "
Duly noted, thanks.
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Aleph
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2004 12:00 am
Contingency plan
HFT prop: Getco, Alston, Jump, Chopper, Eladian, (parts of) Citadel, Tower/Spire, Ronin, Hudson River, Teza, etc... If you include options (I'm not sure if I would for personal reasons, although the definition certainly applies) IMC, Optiver, Tibra....
Proprietary HFT firms are often mostly market makers. If you've got the tech to compete in the space it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to not collect the spread while you're at it.
By 'prop' did you mean more the 'take some position I like and see where it goes' or 'not trading client money'? If you're interesting in automated trading, these sorts of firms are the top of the game and you should really become more familiar with the landscape. Most estimates are that these types of firms are doing 50-70% of many exchanges volumes. The banks were always second-best and now with Vockler are in a worse position.
All of my advice and thoughts come from this area, I know nothing about what a bank looks for in a potential CDS trader, for example, and so judge it's applicability with that in mind.
Proprietary HFT firms are often mostly market makers. If you've got the tech to compete in the space it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to not collect the spread while you're at it.
By 'prop' did you mean more the 'take some position I like and see where it goes' or 'not trading client money'? If you're interesting in automated trading, these sorts of firms are the top of the game and you should really become more familiar with the landscape. Most estimates are that these types of firms are doing 50-70% of many exchanges volumes. The banks were always second-best and now with Vockler are in a worse position.
All of my advice and thoughts come from this area, I know nothing about what a bank looks for in a potential CDS trader, for example, and so judge it's applicability with that in mind.
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sv507
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2004 12:00 am
Contingency plan
I don't see how your degrees will help you get a trading job.
I would have thought there would be plenty of other areas of finance [of which i know little!] that would welcome your knowledge more...
sales/structuring derivatives
private equity
lawyer!
this banking blog has interviewed many of the different types of people in banking
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/joris-luyendijk-banking-blog/2011/sep/15/managing-director-corporate-finance-bank
I would have thought there would be plenty of other areas of finance [of which i know little!] that would welcome your knowledge more...
sales/structuring derivatives
private equity
lawyer!
this banking blog has interviewed many of the different types of people in banking
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/joris-luyendijk-banking-blog/2011/sep/15/managing-director-corporate-finance-bank
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briant57
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2004 12:00 am
Contingency plan
You may want to consider developing your story a bit more on why you want to move into trading after graduation. What products interest you? What asset class? What frequency?
Then get your hands on some data. If you explained what you wanted to do, there are enough kind ppl on this forum who would help get what you need.....
You have a few months left to graduation. Spend some time each day developing a strategy that interests you. Need ideas? Search this forum, academic papers, ect.
Ask for some feedback on what you learned, find people who trade the product you researched, ask for more feedback, and hope that you make some good connections by the time you graduate.
Then get your hands on some data. If you explained what you wanted to do, there are enough kind ppl on this forum who would help get what you need.....
You have a few months left to graduation. Spend some time each day developing a strategy that interests you. Need ideas? Search this forum, academic papers, ect.
Ask for some feedback on what you learned, find people who trade the product you researched, ask for more feedback, and hope that you make some good connections by the time you graduate.
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Peerless
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2004 12:00 am
Contingency plan
@aleph
Thanks for the list. I have heard of (read about) most of those firms, I was planning to eventually apply to some of them.
By "prop' trading", I meant to oppose it to flow trading [FT] and market making [MM] (maybe wrongfully). Somehow, I also meant "taking some positions I like". I believe the spreads and margins are too small when MM or FT. As a believer of "quality" (important moves) vs quantity (incremental moves), I guess that I'm not suited for that "style". Still I have heard that some MM can take some (serious) positions too. I must also admit that I don't understand much about MM though I understand its basic components. Nevertheless, I frequently observe some order books to see the spreads and also, from times to times, I get my hands (eyes) on a nice chart provided by Nanex. Mentioning Nanex, my previous opinion stands for manual MM only. My opinion changes when it comes to automated strategies.
@sv
I know the blog and have read some articles. Though, I couldn't finish the link you gave because I found its content really boring.
Structuring derivatives could interest me. Thanks for the list (however I could have thought -and did- of lawyer myself
) and I was expecting some anti-loop.
@brian
I'm going to explain my desire to move into trading but I believe it's important to understand my academic course before. Long story short. The period of my Ba in Law was the worst time of my (recallable) life. That prompted my transition to a Ba in economics that I did in 2 years. At that time, I started to be interested in trading and realized some strategies could be automated and heard of machine learning. I wanted to get some programming and maths skills, so I moved after my second Ba into the statistics master which offered a good compromise as I would be able to take the courses that interested me, such as stochastic finance and machine learning, without having me starting my studies over.
Now, I don't know if you have ever done something you hated or you found excruciatingly boring for three years, my vow has been since my degree in law to never to do something I dislike because of the trauma it has generated. What I mean by that is if I want to move into trading, even though it seems hard to set the foot in the door (given my background and generally) and its surrounding uncertainty makes it an senseless choice considered my diplomas, is because I like it. Now I can't really explain why. Can you explain why you are so drawn to your g/bf?
During the last 3 years, my level of implication in the financial markets has been volatile, but growing. Still, I have read a few books and I'm part of an investment club (imbued with amateurism) and doing some paper trading on my own. My coverage is limited because I'm studying a 2 year master in one and half and doing an internship at the same time. Recently I have started doing some "serious" strategy research but I haven't yielded any interesting result (yet). Products I have traded and done some (personal) research on are equity, index, trackers, equity and index options, trackers, futures. Moreover, I have worked on a securitization desk and I'm currently working on CVA so my (basic) knowledge of financial products cover more than those cited.
Thanks for the advice brian, I'll be digging deeper in this forum. But what is the goal you are implying by the research you suggest I do?
Thanks a lot again for your answers, it means a lot to me.
Thanks for the list. I have heard of (read about) most of those firms, I was planning to eventually apply to some of them.
By "prop' trading", I meant to oppose it to flow trading [FT] and market making [MM] (maybe wrongfully). Somehow, I also meant "taking some positions I like". I believe the spreads and margins are too small when MM or FT. As a believer of "quality" (important moves) vs quantity (incremental moves), I guess that I'm not suited for that "style". Still I have heard that some MM can take some (serious) positions too. I must also admit that I don't understand much about MM though I understand its basic components. Nevertheless, I frequently observe some order books to see the spreads and also, from times to times, I get my hands (eyes) on a nice chart provided by Nanex. Mentioning Nanex, my previous opinion stands for manual MM only. My opinion changes when it comes to automated strategies.
@sv
I know the blog and have read some articles. Though, I couldn't finish the link you gave because I found its content really boring.
Structuring derivatives could interest me. Thanks for the list (however I could have thought -and did- of lawyer myself
) and I was expecting some anti-loop.@brian
I'm going to explain my desire to move into trading but I believe it's important to understand my academic course before. Long story short. The period of my Ba in Law was the worst time of my (recallable) life. That prompted my transition to a Ba in economics that I did in 2 years. At that time, I started to be interested in trading and realized some strategies could be automated and heard of machine learning. I wanted to get some programming and maths skills, so I moved after my second Ba into the statistics master which offered a good compromise as I would be able to take the courses that interested me, such as stochastic finance and machine learning, without having me starting my studies over.
Now, I don't know if you have ever done something you hated or you found excruciatingly boring for three years, my vow has been since my degree in law to never to do something I dislike because of the trauma it has generated. What I mean by that is if I want to move into trading, even though it seems hard to set the foot in the door (given my background and generally) and its surrounding uncertainty makes it an senseless choice considered my diplomas, is because I like it. Now I can't really explain why. Can you explain why you are so drawn to your g/bf?
During the last 3 years, my level of implication in the financial markets has been volatile, but growing. Still, I have read a few books and I'm part of an investment club (imbued with amateurism) and doing some paper trading on my own. My coverage is limited because I'm studying a 2 year master in one and half and doing an internship at the same time. Recently I have started doing some "serious" strategy research but I haven't yielded any interesting result (yet). Products I have traded and done some (personal) research on are equity, index, trackers, equity and index options, trackers, futures. Moreover, I have worked on a securitization desk and I'm currently working on CVA so my (basic) knowledge of financial products cover more than those cited.
Thanks for the advice brian, I'll be digging deeper in this forum. But what is the goal you are implying by the research you suggest I do?
Thanks a lot again for your answers, it means a lot to me.
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briant57
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2004 12:00 am
Contingency plan
Peerless,
Thanks for sharing. It sounds like you are on the right track and have a good story to tell. I implied goal was to prove to future employers you understood markets, have had some experience generating mkt research/trade ideas, and knew what you really wanted to do outside of just saying 'trader'. It sounds like you are well past that point.
Thanks for sharing. It sounds like you are on the right track and have a good story to tell. I implied goal was to prove to future employers you understood markets, have had some experience generating mkt research/trade ideas, and knew what you really wanted to do outside of just saying 'trader'. It sounds like you are well past that point.