possible paths

Martingale · Post by **Martingale** » Tue Oct 12, 2004 8:38 pm

I have about 3 years experience now, all not in IB(not even banks), while I have been interviewing around, I still feel some what confused. It looks mostly I've seen two type of jobs, one kind is risk management type of jobs, another is some sort of frontish type of jobs. I think it is easier to get into risk jobs for me, kind of since I don't have perfect fit for some of the front office jobs (as I said, I did not work on the exact same thing as they do), but I've heard people saying not so positive things for risk jobs, but then it seems extremely hard for me to get into trading. So should I consider going into some bank, work on risk for some time, then move closer to trading, or should I try to get into trading as soon as possible?

Anyway, I know I've whinning for a while, thanks for any inputs.

JabairuStork · Post by **JabairuStork** » Wed Oct 13, 2004 1:08 am

This is a little bit difficult. A lot of banks do not want to hire guys on the desk unless they already have experience on a desk somewhere else, or they are right out of school. For someone like you with a few years experience, but not direct desk experience, they might perceive you as too costly.

If you get an interview and can convince them you are smart as all phuck, then they will probably give you an offer.

Otherwise, you can get closer to the desk via risk, but there is no guarantee that it will lead you to trading. If you get into risk, you can take advantage of the physical proximity to trading, however, and go talk to people on the desk a lot. If they don't find you annoying, then this will help you positiion yourself to make a move onto the trading desk at some point.

Anyway, who knows, maybe you would really like risk.

Nonius · Post by **Nonius** » Wed Oct 13, 2004 6:37 am

risk sucks. I don't know any risk managers that actually like their jobs. and, the longer you stay in risk, the harder it is to do anything else. first, as your pay increases, the hurdle rate of trading increases. you will in fact rise to a fairly high salary in risk eventually. so, that effects your reasoning on making the switch. second, jab's comments.

so, what happens is you end up relatively unhappy and always having regrets. it doesn't help that half the dickheads on desks are actually less intelligent and less talented than you are.

kr · Post by kr » Wed Oct 13, 2004 1:50 pm

I think this last sentence could sum up the experience of 99% of quant finance people as time passes. It ain't fair, idiot bankers taking all the loot. Hence my comments to JS re: "trader at a big bank" as well.

Don't get mad, get even.

James · Post by **James** » Wed Oct 13, 2004 2:37 pm

Trade. Even for less money.

Risk management is just administering Algorythmics/SunGuard software on top of fictional correlations.

Trade, take your bonus in P&L, and hunker down in pretty much any asset class and wait for the big one. Eventually, during any career, your area becomes 'hot' and even the stupid guys make millions on the backs of zeitgeist and inflows from retail accounts (and the souffles made from retail accounts).

Be there when it happens.

monkeyA · Post by **monkeyA** » Wed Oct 13, 2004 2:38 pm

the thing about being a trader is ... yeah you are probably dumber than the quant guys, but put yourself in this situation:

your target P&L for the year is $20mm, its October 15th and you are -$2mm.

This probably means that, you aren't paid, you might lose your job and possibly your whole career because noone wants an unemployed trader. You have decided to measure yourself and your ability purely by the money you 'make' and you've failed. What if the bonus and jobs of the rest of your team depend on your target as well? You are there carrying around this yardstick and responsibility every day and all through the night. Thats why you'll burn out before 40, looking and feeling like your 60.

Baltazar · Post by **Baltazar** » Wed Oct 13, 2004 2:46 pm

reminds me a pro/con of being a trader thread Smiley

Nonius · Post by **Nonius** » Wed Oct 13, 2004 2:54 pm

bananas for thought Monkey, bananas for thought. I never thought about it the way you described.

jungle · Post by **jungle** » Wed Oct 13, 2004 3:03 pm

[i]Trade, take your bonus in P&L, and hunker down in pretty much any asset class and wait for the big one. Eventually, during any career, your area becomes 'hot' and even the stupid guys make millions on the backs of zeitgeist and inflows from retail accounts (and the souffles made from retail accounts).[/i]

well, yes, if you're a market maker, or "flow trader". if you are pure prop, then it's more like what monkey said...not quite live or die by your last trade, but last year, anyway (at best).

i don't know much about this, but i remember reading that a lot of exotic IR guys work as quants first then move over. so perhaps a front-office role with the potential for transition would suit? i'm hoping DW will jump in here.

Martingale · Post by **Martingale** » Wed Oct 13, 2004 4:04 pm

Thanks for all the inputs, gang. The situation for me, like Jab pointed out, is that I don't have that much of physical proximity to trading desks. I think my personality is well suited for trading, but just waiting for something to come is kind of waiting for a wife without dating....life is complicated....