I hate my career
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chiral3
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- Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2004 12:00 am
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kr
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2004 12:00 am
I hate my career
LT -
Couldn't agree with you more... Actually this was the biggest reason why I got out of academia - you can't help but take it with you. Gradually, it seemed that your research problems start to take over your entire life. QF is not that good in comparison with the starchier white-collar jobs, but it's better than academic research. There's just too many other things to do in life, and getting forced into a one-dimensional existence is not enjoyable - life shouldn't be about one thing only.
signed,
ex-pianist
ex-RF elec engineer
ex-student of german, french, russian, mandarin
ex-avid reader
semi-retired number theorist
etc.
Couldn't agree with you more... Actually this was the biggest reason why I got out of academia - you can't help but take it with you. Gradually, it seemed that your research problems start to take over your entire life. QF is not that good in comparison with the starchier white-collar jobs, but it's better than academic research. There's just too many other things to do in life, and getting forced into a one-dimensional existence is not enjoyable - life shouldn't be about one thing only.
signed,
ex-pianist
ex-RF elec engineer
ex-student of german, french, russian, mandarin
ex-avid reader
semi-retired number theorist
etc.
my bank got pwnd
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Patrik
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- Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2004 12:00 am
I hate my career
damn, I'm only just starting out in the industry and this thread is already starting to get me a bit disillusioned.. perhaps I should opt for monkeyA's CD instead..
/Patrik
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kr
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2004 12:00 am
I hate my career
Ok, probably I am a bit hypersensitive... let me explain. Basically I am the quant to a team of I-bankers. Personality-wise, these people couldn't be more different than traders. The most obvious thing is face time. This is a concept that I was wholly unfamiliar with until 2 years ago. Most ibankers are not intelligent enough to do NPV and IRR on their own, so they can't compete on P/L terms like traders do. So, they compete on clock hours. This is what leads to the twisted lifestyles that these guys lead. As an example, I recently interviewed for a very similar position, and their guys basically do 8am-12am, 6 days a week.
Let me ask you something: With a 100-hour workweek, how long does it take to read a 400pp book cover-to-cover? It could take years. A lot of these people really panic when they get older, because they don't know how to do a single thing besides deals. Granted, this requires a lot of schmoozing which hardly qualifies as work, but it's not really for fun either - i.e. you can't go to the party and get totally wasted, gotta be on your guard.
Lucky for me, I am doing 12x6 rather than 16x6, but it's really getting to me. I don't see how people work so hard to be good at what they do, to the specific exclusion of everything else. Ok, you can fill your face-time up with nucphynance.com etc., but that's not the same as a few hours of concerted concentration.
So why subject myself? Early retirement option, and the ability to do a partial rather than complete exercise of same. So far, we are making progress, even given the graduate school delay, so I'll be patient.
Let me ask you something: With a 100-hour workweek, how long does it take to read a 400pp book cover-to-cover? It could take years. A lot of these people really panic when they get older, because they don't know how to do a single thing besides deals. Granted, this requires a lot of schmoozing which hardly qualifies as work, but it's not really for fun either - i.e. you can't go to the party and get totally wasted, gotta be on your guard.
Lucky for me, I am doing 12x6 rather than 16x6, but it's really getting to me. I don't see how people work so hard to be good at what they do, to the specific exclusion of everything else. Ok, you can fill your face-time up with nucphynance.com etc., but that's not the same as a few hours of concerted concentration.
So why subject myself? Early retirement option, and the ability to do a partial rather than complete exercise of same. So far, we are making progress, even given the graduate school delay, so I'll be patient.
my bank got pwnd
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JabairuStork
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- Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2004 12:00 am
I hate my career
kr, I don't how you do it. I definitely couldn't hack.
I don't get people who come from some type of science/math background and migrate to finance simply because "it pays better." Well, I get it, but I hate them. The next person who tells me that is going to get kicked in the dick.
I can barely summon up enough energy to care these days. Hopefully it is just a natural part of the cycle, and I'll swing back to caring, but it's entirely possible that I might just give up.
I used to really have passion for finance, but I'm starting to forget why I even liked it in the first place. I primarily blame wall street, and only secondarily the booze.
Being around people of second rate intelligence and first rate egos all day long eventually takes its toll.
It almost makes me want to just save up a little money and move to Brasil.
I don't get people who come from some type of science/math background and migrate to finance simply because "it pays better." Well, I get it, but I hate them. The next person who tells me that is going to get kicked in the dick.
I can barely summon up enough energy to care these days. Hopefully it is just a natural part of the cycle, and I'll swing back to caring, but it's entirely possible that I might just give up.
I used to really have passion for finance, but I'm starting to forget why I even liked it in the first place. I primarily blame wall street, and only secondarily the booze.
Being around people of second rate intelligence and first rate egos all day long eventually takes its toll.
It almost makes me want to just save up a little money and move to Brasil.
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kr
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2004 12:00 am
I hate my career
well, see, I have my support group! thanks guys!
One thing is that where you're coding or doing really serious modelling all day, it's not a good situation because you know full well the big picture is fucked up, but you don't have the freedom to stop and understand it. If you trade into the deals-deals-deals world, the depth of your direct effort becomes more limited, but you have time to let your mind wander.
The major conclusion of my demented drifting sessions is that even though people say finance is ultimately all about P/L, I think it's really all about dogma. Feeble-minded statistics are used because it provides the most manipulable yardstick, and that's exactly what people then apply their effort to: manipulating the yardstick. Soros' reflexivity in action here.
The mistake the sharper minds make is that they believe their own dogma can outcompete the existing ones. Ain't gonna happen. You are far better off being a double-agent, it's just the only way to remain in the game. And what's so wrong with that? I thought everybody wanted to work under cover.
But I won't deny that
a) my liquor consumption has increased, so I keep an eye on it
b) I am saving cash like crazy
Yesterday I was comparing my savings rate to the U.S. average, and if I turned things around and backed out my effective salary based on the average rate, I had to laugh a little bit.
Truly, it's better not to think of yourself as a quant, saving the world from derivatives disasters 8 days a week. Channelsurfing the other day, I saw these guys who raised a big IPO so that they could raise shipwrecks in the Atlantic and take the gold. All the spirit of Klondike, but without the blue-collar feel to it - looked like fun. I also see a lot of CEOs here, and I will say that just playing entrepreneur is pretty lame. You are not really going for that. The succesful guys don't do interesting things, and they are all about generating confidence. It would be more fun to overthrow an African government and steal all the diamonds. Some parts of IB are actually like that, that's what makes it worthwhile to grab your machete and start hacking through the bush.
apocalypse now, buddy
One thing is that where you're coding or doing really serious modelling all day, it's not a good situation because you know full well the big picture is fucked up, but you don't have the freedom to stop and understand it. If you trade into the deals-deals-deals world, the depth of your direct effort becomes more limited, but you have time to let your mind wander.
The major conclusion of my demented drifting sessions is that even though people say finance is ultimately all about P/L, I think it's really all about dogma. Feeble-minded statistics are used because it provides the most manipulable yardstick, and that's exactly what people then apply their effort to: manipulating the yardstick. Soros' reflexivity in action here.
The mistake the sharper minds make is that they believe their own dogma can outcompete the existing ones. Ain't gonna happen. You are far better off being a double-agent, it's just the only way to remain in the game. And what's so wrong with that? I thought everybody wanted to work under cover.
But I won't deny that
a) my liquor consumption has increased, so I keep an eye on it
b) I am saving cash like crazy
Yesterday I was comparing my savings rate to the U.S. average, and if I turned things around and backed out my effective salary based on the average rate, I had to laugh a little bit.
Truly, it's better not to think of yourself as a quant, saving the world from derivatives disasters 8 days a week. Channelsurfing the other day, I saw these guys who raised a big IPO so that they could raise shipwrecks in the Atlantic and take the gold. All the spirit of Klondike, but without the blue-collar feel to it - looked like fun. I also see a lot of CEOs here, and I will say that just playing entrepreneur is pretty lame. You are not really going for that. The succesful guys don't do interesting things, and they are all about generating confidence. It would be more fun to overthrow an African government and steal all the diamonds. Some parts of IB are actually like that, that's what makes it worthwhile to grab your machete and start hacking through the bush.
apocalypse now, buddy
my bank got pwnd
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FDAXHunter
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2004 12:00 am
I hate my career
Apocalypse Now.... lovin' it Smiley
I whole-heartedly agree with kr. If you are working on the street, you gotta be double agent. Fuck trying "to change the system" from within. Ain't gonna happen. You can't really be Mike Tyson and knock 'em all flat, sooner or later, your ending up with a knife in the back.
A friend of mine actually try to do the African Destabilization & Overthrow scheme once. Got a bunch of soldiers and support from some shareholders and charged up the hill at the directors. Almost worked... though in the end they all got slaughtered.
If you plan a coup d'etat (notice: there is a fun pun here: Etat also means something like available funds in German), you best have enough people and ammunition you might as well invade a third world country (or Belgium or something).
I don't like raiding in the traditional sense, i.e. invade, suppress steal and abandon.
I'd much rather do the sort of thing Danaher does. Invade, fortify, mine, repeat.
*end rant*
I whole-heartedly agree with kr. If you are working on the street, you gotta be double agent. Fuck trying "to change the system" from within. Ain't gonna happen. You can't really be Mike Tyson and knock 'em all flat, sooner or later, your ending up with a knife in the back.
A friend of mine actually try to do the African Destabilization & Overthrow scheme once. Got a bunch of soldiers and support from some shareholders and charged up the hill at the directors. Almost worked... though in the end they all got slaughtered.
If you plan a coup d'etat (notice: there is a fun pun here: Etat also means something like available funds in German), you best have enough people and ammunition you might as well invade a third world country (or Belgium or something).
I don't like raiding in the traditional sense, i.e. invade, suppress steal and abandon.
I'd much rather do the sort of thing Danaher does. Invade, fortify, mine, repeat.
*end rant*
The Figs Protocol.
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opmtrader
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2004 12:00 am
I hate my career
I remembered FDAX's post on "African Destabilization & Overthrow". It seems that Thatcher's son is wrapped up in a similar scheme for real. Trying to overthrow an oil rich African nation allegedly. Check it out:
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=578&e=3&u=/nm/20040825/ts_nm/safrica_thatcher_dc
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=578&e=3&u=/nm/20040825/ts_nm/safrica_thatcher_dc
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energy_quant
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2004 12:00 am
I hate my career
Friend of mine runs an import/export business (foodstuffs). He has almost gone under a few times because he was leveraged to the hilt, but now business is great. He just told me how much he will take out of the business this year - holly crap!
It's not the money (we're both now, by normal standard, quite well off). It is the journey to get there. My job has no meaning, and it basically never has. I sold out on day one. He has built something that he will pass on to his children - I envy him because he took the hard road.
Nothing very profound I'm afraid.....
It's not the money (we're both now, by normal standard, quite well off). It is the journey to get there. My job has no meaning, and it basically never has. I sold out on day one. He has built something that he will pass on to his children - I envy him because he took the hard road.
Nothing very profound I'm afraid.....
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quantnoob
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I hate my career
[i]I don't get people who come from some type of science/math background and migrate to finance simply because "it pays better." Well, I get it, but I hate them. The next person who tells me that is going to get kicked in the dick.[/i]
Career-related message boards are dominated by selection bias. People who are happy in their careers spend less time on them than those who are not. This message board in particular makes finance out to be really shitty-- long hours, poor working conditions, rampant political dangers, macho culture-- and that seems to be an exception rather than the rule, at least in what I've observed. Most quants and traders I know enjoy their jobs and very few have to put up with the 60+ work weeks and the macho/idiot culture associated with 1980s banking movies.
I don't understand why the people posting here, like the OP, about their horrible jobs don't start interviewing as soon as things go wrong. Back when dinosaurs ruled the earth, there was a significant stigma against leaving a job before putting in 2-3 years. However, that stigma has relaxed due to increased workplace turnover on both sides, and the cost of 2+ years' career stagnation is immense compared to the stigma associated with "job-hopping".
This probably has no relevance to the OP; his post was 2004, so hopefully he's moved on.
Career-related message boards are dominated by selection bias. People who are happy in their careers spend less time on them than those who are not. This message board in particular makes finance out to be really shitty-- long hours, poor working conditions, rampant political dangers, macho culture-- and that seems to be an exception rather than the rule, at least in what I've observed. Most quants and traders I know enjoy their jobs and very few have to put up with the 60+ work weeks and the macho/idiot culture associated with 1980s banking movies.
I don't understand why the people posting here, like the OP, about their horrible jobs don't start interviewing as soon as things go wrong. Back when dinosaurs ruled the earth, there was a significant stigma against leaving a job before putting in 2-3 years. However, that stigma has relaxed due to increased workplace turnover on both sides, and the cost of 2+ years' career stagnation is immense compared to the stigma associated with "job-hopping".
This probably has no relevance to the OP; his post was 2004, so hopefully he's moved on.